The Great Caliber Debate !!

Discussion in 'Hunting Forum' started by SWO1, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    Really suprised nobody has brought this up. It ALWAYS does on any hunting forum Ive ever been on. Sooooo here we go........................

    I will start by pointing out many States/Countrys have rules that limit "or not" what size projectile may be used to take Deer. And lets for now limit it to WhiteTail (or an equivliant i.e. in Australia) as its the perdominant species the Majority on here hunt. I will give my thoughts first.

    In Missouri its ANY CENTERFIRE cartridge.... No FMJ. Thats (as far as I know) .18 Bee - .50 BMG. Shotguns its .410 and up with slugs only. Black Powder is .40 cal for the minimun. Handguns is centerfire again and black Powder handguns .40 cal. And the best is......In my opinion.....

    Any of the above. Reason....Its bullet placement that counts.

    If you have one that you think is better, other than you just like it, and we all have our favorites, ........why is it better than the rest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
  2. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Lifetime Supporting

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    Pennsylvania Game Commission Rules

    My caliber of choice for deer is .30 WCF...fired from my Model 1894.

    Arms and Ammunition

    General Statewide Seasons: (1) Manually operated center-fire rifles, handguns and shotguns with all-lead bullet or ball, or a bullet designed to expand on impact; (2) muzzleloading long gun of any type or caliber; and (3) long, recurve or compound bows with a peak draw weight not less than 35 pounds, and crossbows with a draw weight of not less than 125 pounds, and not more than 200 pounds. Bowhunters must use arrows equipped with broadheads having an outside diameter of at least 7/8-inch with no less than two cutting edges, which shall be in the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface. Crossbow hunters may use bolts tipped with broadheads of cutting edge design. The use of buckshot is illegal, except in the Southeast Special Regulations Area.

    Archery Seasons: Long, recurve and compound bows, and crossbows, using arrows tipped with broadheads having an outside diameter of at least 7/8-inch with no less than two cutting edges, which shall be in the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface. Persons hunting deer in archery seasons may not possess a firearm of any type.

    Flintlock Muzzleloader Season: Only single-barrel long-guns .44 caliber or larger, or hanguns .50 caliber or larger with a flintlock ignition system. The firearm must be an original or reproduction of a gun used prior to 1800, with iron, open "V" or notched sights (fiber-optic inserts are permitted). A flintlock ignition system consists of a hammer containing a naturally-occurring stone which is spring-propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen, which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a gunpowder. Flintlock muzzleloader hunters may use "any single projectile," including sabots, and mini and maxi balls.

    Antlerless Muzzleloader Season: Only single-barrel muzzleloading long-guns .44 caliber or larger, or muzzleloading handguns .50 caliber, including in-line and percussion sporting arms. Use of scopes and other lawful sighting devices is permitted. Fiber optic inserts may be used.

    Special Regulations Areas: (all of Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia counties) Muzzleloading long guns, bow and arrow, manual or auto-loading shotguns, 20 gauge or larger, slugs or buckshot only; crossbows and .410 shotguns with slugs. Buckshot may not be used in Allegheny County. Only crossbows, bows and arrows are permitted in Philadelphia County. Crossbows may be used in the two-week statewide concurrent antlered and antlerless deer season.

    Unlawful Sporting Arms: Automatic and semi-automatic rifles and handguns; and air or gas-operated rifles and handguns.
     

  3. 1894

    1894 Well-Known Member

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    Harrummfff , Being a " Marlin " forum , I suspect that out of that wrenchester 1894, the .30 wcf bullet will just bounce off a deer :rolleyes: Out of a Marlin it will just flat out kill them , gut them , and drag the deer home :cool:
     
  4. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    ** In my mind, there is no debate.
    If you like it and it does the job for you, it is the best.
    Every individual is different with specific needs. Not only the caliber but subtle differences in the rifle.
    First place; The Marlin 30-30. The caliber works well on whitetail. The rifle is easy to carry and quick handling.
    My second choice would be the 7mm Mauser or the 7mm-08. I'm not an en-ja-ma-neer but there is something about that bullet that flat out performs on whitetail.
    Third choice is the 270 win. (30-06 improved). I've owned more than one and they perform flawlessly on whitetail.
    Last choice would be the 243 or 6mm. Great for longer distance, accurate and more than enough to get the job done.

    My approach is to find the best rifle that is made in a desirable caliber. The rifle should be dependable, durable, not too heavy, moderate recoil, carry well and have a crisp trigger pull. I had a Weatherby Vangard w/a scope in 270 but after a long day in the woods, my arms were wore out because of the weight. I had two older Rem 760 with the exposed magazine (270 & 30-06) that didn't rest well on my forearm if I carried it across my chest. And they had horrendous trigger pull.
    Last but not least, the rifle has to fit i.e. length of pull, drop in the comb, etc. After all, I'm basically a Shot Gun kinda guy.
    While hunting in Pa., my friends had problems with 30-06 & 308 rounds passing through without expanding resulting in tracking the deer. I understand that bullet technology has improved, but. Some may like the performance of the Magnum Calibers but for whitetail, the question comes to mind, "Why".
    ** If it works for you and you're happy :D, what is to debate?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
  5. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Lifetime Supporting

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    Sorry 1894...:D

    But that 1894 has taken more deer than my Remington Model 700 in 7mm Remington Magnum

    and my Remington 7600 in 30-06 Springfield put together.

    And I don't think my favorite Marlin 80...in .22 short, long, and long rifle is up to task !! :p
     
  6. 1894

    1894 Well-Known Member

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    Hey , someone had ta stir the pot :D
     
  7. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    I'm not sure what your asking but if you have a shotgun with a smooth bore and a hand full of chokes and change to a rifled barrel for deer and large game.with a bow for archery season then a muzzle loader for primitive weapons season and a 270 for long range shots. NEVER MIND YOU CANT HAVE JUST ONE CALIBER BUY THEM ALL AND DONT LOOK BACK :D
     
  8. axxe55

    axxe55 Well-Known Member

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    how about the long time favorite? the 30-06! lots of history behind that round. been to several wars, able to take most any game animal in North America and everybody loves the 30-06! it's classic and timeless!:D
     
  9. Windy

    Windy Well-Known Member Supporting

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    Okay........here I go. I am the self proclaimed Queen of Questions. :(


    Why wouldn't you use FMJ on deer. I understand that there are certain sized calibers to use on different animals such as a .22 probably isn't a good round to use on elk. :D But I see other than caliber it seems to matter what type of bullet is used, too.

    I know I'm asking a lot but could anyone explain why the different types of bullets besides the different calibers used in hunting certain animals?

    And......I once ate a pheasant someone had shot and I had to keep spitting out shot. It kind of ruined the experience of eating a bird someone hunted. Is that typical?
     
  10. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    To answer your question....FMJ...Full Metal Jacket, They do not expand on impact with flesh. They tend to punch straight thru resulting in small wound channels and really doing minimual damage. Yes they do kill, but unless shot in the Head, spinal cord its a slow and long death. Resulting in a lot of lost game. Also FMJs tend to punch thru things like trees and richocet off rocks causing an unsafe condition. About the only application in hunting is against Very Large, Heavy boned animals, I.E. Elephants, Water Buffalo, Hippo, where a Lot of Penetration is required to reach vital organs. A Water Buffalo skin can be up to 3" thick. On the other end of the scale you have the Varmit bullets usually with Poloymer tips and very thin outer copper cladding around soft lead. These are designed to almost explode on Impact and are ineffective on thin skinned deer sized animals. They will disinegrate before reaching vital organs. They are used by Parrie Dogs shooters and other Varmit shooters on small game where even a suitiable deer bullet whould punch righ thru without expanding.

    As for the Pellets in your bird, happens a lot. Due mostly to poor cleaning and preperation. Also happens on rabbits and squirrels taken with shotguns and shotshells.
     
  11. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    A great round...proven over and over....But Not everybody likes them. I have no use for LONG cartriges, i.e. 06, 270, 300. Along with the .270 just about everybody I know perfers it. Guess Im the odd man out......:p
     
  12. Windy

    Windy Well-Known Member Supporting

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    I also belong to another gun forum and this round......30-06......is mentioned often in regards to deer hunting.

    I have never shot an animal yet.....just paper and steel.
     
  13. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Just like 1894 said; "Someone had ta stir da pot."
    Most likely, it's a guy thing. Especially this time of year, with the "Rut" and all. :p Just brings up a reason for a little horn rattling.
    Mix in a little pride and away ya go. (joking here - a little - maybe ;))
    Accent the positive and downplay the faults and you have the best ever.
    "My truck is better than your truck" kinda thing.
    That is why it is a personal preference and that is what makes it interesting and profitable for the manufactures.
    As for the FMJ question. SWO1 gave a pretty good answer. Based on where you are right now, consider Ball Ammo v.s. Hollow Point for your handguns. Then expand that concept into the world of rifles used for everything from varmint to dangerous game.
    I am, however, surprised that the Big Bore Advocates haven't chimed in. They certainly are contenders in this debate.

    And it's OK that you have never shot an animal. If you ever do, it should be because you want to, not because someone else thinks that you should.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  14. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    Its like a new caliber
     
  15. jeffw122

    jeffw122 Member

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    The great state of Tennesse's legislature recently gave the nod on all centerfire rounds for big game. I personally believe that was a mistake. I have almost 40 years hunting experience and have seen many things. The first trophy whitetail I took had what looked like a 30 caliber jacket in his hind quarter. It had been there long enough that no lead remained. Having said that bullet placement is the most important part of havesting wild game. However I believe that the 22 hornet and 223 etc are inadequate for whitetail, as is the 357 magnum. The 410 slug is also a weak choice. I believe caliber restrictions should be imposed and based on scientific information, not personal opinion or even general concensous. Certain energy at range numbers come to mind...
     
  16. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    And this sentence is the most important part of your post. There are also a lot of Qualifacations that go along with that. Velocity and FPS on impact, bullet type and many, many more. Over all restrictions for a "certain" population of hunters would probley be OK. But you cant identify that group. Restrictions unduly pentalize the majority of capiable firearms users. Much like the pocession, CCW laws do.
     
  17. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    Aaah so ture grey.....Nothin like chunkin those boat anchors at the speed of........well ME for example.....LOL
     
  18. 1894

    1894 Well-Known Member

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    :D @ SWO1 . If I pack up this little snowball ( read grenade ;) and I roll it down a steep snow covered mountain , I wonder what may happen :confused:

    In other words , as Grey mentioned , ain't no right or wrong answer .
    Shot placement with a proper projectile is key.
    Also , cooler temps and shorter days have some of us doing funny things. Bare spot on the carpet from constant pawing , finish worn off the bed post from excessive head rubbing , most every tree / bush / or passage way in the yard has been peed on at least once in the last 24 hours.
    Not that I've ever done anything in the above paragraph :rolleyes:
    It is a fun topic , step back and watch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  19. 1894

    1894 Well-Known Member

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    The .270 is the best deer killer ever invented .

    45-70 , may as well just throw a brick at the deer.

    30-06 ??? Really they still make those antiques ?

    Can't kill deer with millimeters ,deer rifles are measured in inches.

    The .22 rimfire has probably killed more deer in the USA than all other centerfires combined.
     
  20. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    .270......A usless caliber...No case for it so had to stick it on the end of a 30.06 brass to get over 10000000000000 fps to do any damage.......:p

    45.70......See Dictionary under "Boat Anchors".......;)

    30-06.....Real name is thuddy-odd-stix...In long range matches past 300 yds their great 12 ft groups where king....Until the .308 put them to pasture...:D

    As for Millimeters, liters, centameters.......I dont speak French......:rolleyes:

    The .22.......NOW AINT THAT THE TRUTH......AND STILL IS.