Combat Shotguns for self defense.

Discussion in 'Other Guns' started by greyhawk50, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Found this article on FB. I found it interesting and worth the time to read.
    http://www.humanevents.com/2012/11/25/the-combat-shotgun/
    I, for one, agree with the article. It may not be right for everyone but worthy enough to give it some consideration.
    My weapon of choice is the Mossberg 500 Youth Model Bantam chambered in 410.
    Why 410 and why a youth model you may ask. My wife is 5' 2" and for years, was intimidated by guns. With patience and persistence on my part, she is now comfortable with firearms as long as they are not too big or heavy, not to loud and don't kick too much. The youth model 410 fits that criteria. Add to that the introduction of self defense loads like the Win. Disc, Fed. 000 Buck and Rem. Slugs, all suitable for home defense. Any of them are capable of taking the smile off of any perpetrators face :eek:. Keep in mind that the Elastic Butt Mount Shell Holder for Rifles works very well for 410s when held in place by the rear swivel mount screw. Add to that the fact that we live in town where collateral damage is a concern, again, a very good choice.
    My choice may not fit the bill for everyone but may deserve consideration if your situation is similar to mine in any way.
    Food for thought. What Ya think??
     

    Attached Files:

  2. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    Good choice grey. Along with the handgun training my wife and daughter will also recieve hands-on with the Mossberg .410 and 20 gauge. Under 25 yds nothing better than a shotgun. At close range most are suprised at how tight the patterns are with 000 or 00 buck. Contrary to popular belief they are not just a point and shoot weapon. Im sure you have, and all should practice at different yardage with different loads to see how your firearm patterns.

    Another good article on the subject is listed. Its pretty long and lists all firearms, rifles, pistols and shotguns. Just scroll down to the shotgun section:

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
     

  3. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the article. It's a good read.
    However - I must respectfully somewhat disagree with the section on 410.
    "None of the above really applies in this weak caliber. The .410 is only a half-way decent man-stopper with slugs. Choose the Federal Classic (F412RS) or Winchester Super-X (X41RS5) 1/5 ounce (88 grain) hollowpoint slugs. Never use birdshot. There are some odd buckshot loads for the .410 (with three 000 pellets) and I advise you to ignore them. Lose the .410 and buy a 20 gauge pump shotgun."

    Although I must agree that the 1/5 oz. slug is lacking in weight as a man-stopper, I beg to differ when it comes to the Buck Shot.
    As I understand it, the 000 buck pellets measures just over 9mm. Consider the fact that there are 4 traveling together out the barrel at over 1600 fps. (same as the 12 or 20 - just fewer pellets)
    There are some buckshot loads with #4 Buck. Again, the #4 pellet measures just over 6mm and there are 5 pellets traveling at over 1600 fps.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell Scroll down to the Buck Shot Chart.
    The Judge has been given a lot of hype as a self defense weapon. With the longer barrel of the shotgun adding 400+ fps (30 fps/inch) - I would think that was even better.
    However, I would agree that the 20 ga. (or even 12 ga.) is a better choice unless recoil, weight and report intimidates the user.
    With the introduction of The Judge, the ammo manufactures have developed a variety of loads and, at least in this area, they are more readily available. The 20 ga. Buck is hard to find. The manufactures have come out with some Coyote/Predator Loads with heavy shot but again, hard to find.
    I have patterned the 410 pump at 20 yards. Repeatedly, I had 3 pellets within a 4" radius at point of aim with a 4th. pellet as a flyer about 2" out. The flyer varied as far as the path that it took but the 3 pellet cluster stayed the same and the overall group was consistent.
    Like I say, maybe not for everyone.
    The article is an excellent read. Thanks for posting it. And, I really respect ChuckHawks.
    Although I found it interesting the the 380 auto and 9mm Mak. were considered descent stopping power with the 85 gr. and 88 gr. bullet at 1000 fps but he poopooed the 410 slug that travels out the barrel at over 1800 fps???
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  4. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    Mossberg is the best shotgun for the money,Have you considered slugs,I know buck shot might be a better choice just point and aim
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  5. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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  6. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  7. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    what???? delete this post


     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  8. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    Quite the contrary....I read every one of them. Although I had to use my R. Lee decoder cursor to read this one........:p
     
  9. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Here is another link that I found interesting.
    If you notice the cross section of the Slug, you will see that it has a very hollow base. This is by design. Aside from the expanding quality which provides the seal for the gas in the barrel, it gives the slug a weight forward quality much like the Badminton Shuttlecock. Thus improving accuracy and straight flight. ;)
    http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm
    Amazing the trivia that clutters my mind. :(

    If you consider the 3" slug with the 110 gr. (1/4 oz.) at 1800 fps. (dia. 390-396), that puts it in the class with the M-1 Carbine.
    The M-1 Carbine is a .308" dia. weighing in at 110 gr. at a velocity of 2000 fps.
    I'm sure that the Carbine is more accurate, but still.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  10. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    I see you. You can't hide from me. ;)
    I seen the Edit as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  11. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    For any intrested here is a site where a gentleman tested different brands of .410 slugs and buckshot. Tests were for velocity using a chrono (he shot the box with buckshot thru a judge....lol) penetration and accuracy. If you are like me the pictures are great. Tests are from a Tarus Judge and a Winchester shotgun.

    http://mcb-homis.com/index410.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  12. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting. I need to get me some Brenneke Silver Slugs (if I can find them) and some Winchester 1/4 oz. slugs.
    Now I'm going to read the article about using 410 slugs for deer hunting. Although I believe that they should be limited to handgun range.

     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  13. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    I undersdtand you cant related to every post.But i think i have some of the Brenneke slugs If you want them let me know i think i only have 3or 4 if i can figure out how to send ammo
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  14. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    Since you have some I will assume you have shot them. What gun/choke did you put them thru ? My Mossy /410 has a full choke and Ive read that slugs are ok thu it but not the most accurate. Also, again just from reading, some say that shotgun slugs are most accurate under 100 yds from a smooth bore with a sabot slug vice a rifled barrel. Ive got some Federal 2.5", 1/4 oz hollow points. Never shot any tho.
     
  15. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    I would also be interested in how the Benneke 410 slugs shoot. Any opinion??
     
  16. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    Oh no there 12 ga I forgot you said you needed 410ga:eek:
     
  17. FOUR4D4

    FOUR4D4 Moderator Moderator

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    I shot them thru my Marlin 512 Slugster.there rifled slugs and i ment to by sabots
     
  18. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    I have only shot the 2.5" Rem. Sluggers. I have a Rossi Youth Model Single that will hold a 3" group at 20 yards. It has a full choke and shoot point of aim pretty well.
    My Mossy Bantam will hold a 5" group at point of aim, 25 yards. It too is a full choke. The short barrel is cyl. choke but I fear that it will shoot high??? Haven't tried it yet. Basically, I'm just playing around at the range more out of curiosity than anything else.
    I have considered using the 410 for deer but it would have to be a neck shot at 30 yards or less and I'm not confident that either gun is that accurate. That is why I want to try other, heavier slugs. They are both more than adequate for home defense.
    I have a NEF Tracker II 12 ga. with a rifled barrel that shoots very well at 50 yards with rifled slugs and pretty well at 100 yards with Sabots. But it kicks like an angry mule. :eek:
     
  19. SWO1

    SWO1 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporting

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    greyhawk50....On your short barrel with cyl. choke. Again this is only what I have read on searching but it mostly says cyl. choke is the best option for slugs. I speak NOT from experience only from what OTHERS have said. Give it a try grey, I would like to know....:cool:
     
  20. greyhawk50

    greyhawk50 Well-Known Member

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    Now you have made me curious. And for you, I'll give it a try. ;)
    As you know, Ohio doesn't allow center fire rifles for deer. Shotguns with slug, muzzle loaders and pistols are what we use. So, for most people on here, all this is wasted time. But for me, it's interesting R&D.
    I also own a Mossy 20 ga. with the Vent Rib Choke Tube Barrel. It has a Modified Choke. I shot some slugs thru it this week and it shoots a nice group but it shoots 6"-10" low at 20-25 yards. I also have an 18" riot barrel for it that is wide open but because of the lack of a rib or sights, it shoots about 6" high at 20 yards. It's all about the sights, or lack of.
    I'm afraid that the short barrel for the 410 will shoot high for the same reason. But, for you - and me, I'll give it a try and let you know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012