Reloading for lever action 30-30

8230 Views 21 Replies 6 Participants Last post by xwrench3, Oct 23, 2012

hombre243

Discussion Starter · Oct 14, 2012 (Edited by Moderator)

I have been reloading 45 LC and 45ACP, also 9mm Luger. No bottleneck cartridges. I want to reload for my Marlin 336/30-30. I know that full length resizing assures a factory spec cartridge. I need to know if it is oki to neck-only resize if I am only going to use the ammo in this one rifle. I don't know for sure if the cartridges HAVE to be full length rezized or if the shgells will chamber properly if I only neck resize. (I know I can load one and try it but I just need a general rule of thumb here. One way or tother I am going to cook up my loads at home.

I used to load for a 270 and a 222 but those were bolt guns.

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greyhawk50

· #2 · Oct 14, 2012

Just my understanding and my opinion.
Full Length Size for Lever Guns. The reason that I was given is that the action on a lever doesn't have the extraction power/leverage of a bolt gun. Therefore, chances of getting a case stuck in the chamber is increased. I don't always take advise from others but logic told me that they just might be right in this case.
I've loaded many, many rounds for bolt guns and almost always neck sized. Saves wear and tear on the brass and centers the bullet with the barrel for improved accuracy.
JMHO
Let's see what others think.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 14, 2012

I got the same info

greyhawk50 said:
Just my understanding and my opinion.
Full Length Size for Lever Guns. The reason that I was given is that the action on a lever doesn't have the extraction power/leverage of a bolt gun. Therefore, chances of getting a case stuck in the chamber is increased. I don't always take advise from others but logic told me that they just might be right in this case.
I've loaded many, many rounds for bolt guns and almost always neck sized. Saves wear and tear on the brass and centers the bullet with the barrel for improved accuracy.
JMHO
Let's see what others think.

I couldn't remember if full length sizing was just for other leverguns, other guns or whatever. I heard it just as you told it. Levers do not have the extraction or chambering power of a bolt. (I was hoping I could necksize only for MY lever gun but looks like it it's going to be full length.)

Thanks a bunch
h

aka

· #4 · Oct 14, 2012

try and neck size it only then make a dummy round and try it, if it doesn't work take it apart and go from there. With my lever action it will have to be full cased sized. Or they will not chamber without a mallet.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 14, 2012

I think the rule is hard and fast, but I can just necksize and seat a bullet w/o crimping, w/o primer or powder and see how it works. That makes sense...not too complicated and not dangerous.

aka

· #6 · Oct 15, 2012

That makes sense...not too complicated and not dangerous.
__________________

Just from recent experiance I found full length sizing worked best. Do what's best for your use. Good luck with it. The ammo I built out preformed the store bought stuff I had been using. After some trial and error.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 15, 2012

That's part of the enjoyment...

aka said:
Just from recent experiance I found full length sizing worked best. Do what's best for your use. Good luck with it. The ammo I built out preformed the store bought stuff I had been using. After some trial and error.

... of the whole activity that pertains to firearms. I enjoy working up loads. I haven't managed to do so well using my homemade lead bullets but using jacketed, or professionally made lead bullets my 45LC and 9mm seem to do well. I mayjust start molding fishing sinkers and leave the bullet making to the pros. My 9's would tumble over on their sides at 25 yards. BUT, they all stayed in the kill area. The JHP's I loaded kept a bit tighter group and flew right so I would trust them at a bit longer distance. I wouldn't be afraid to carry either in my concealed weapon.

I still have issues with my 45LC not being as accurate as I like using cast. But I think I need to harden up the lead some and experiment with the bullet size. Mine may be a couple thous too small.

It takes time and money to do it right and right now money is the problem. I am ok at about 30-35 yards with what I got but the groups aren't very consistant. Could be me too. That Ruger kicks a bit and is a bit slippery with the plastic grips, and I haven't gotten to take it out since I put the Hogues on. Hoping to use it next week when I get to Tyler.

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axxe55

· #8 · Oct 15, 2012

from what i have read in my books they recommend full length resizing for lever and semi-auto actioned rifles and most bolt actions can usually get away with neck sizing only if used in the same rifle as they were shot in to begin with.

SWO1

· #9 · Oct 15, 2012

Although way short on experience as compaired to the other contributors on this post I will echo their comments. Always full size for autos, levers, and pumps. Camming power is a lot less than bolt guns. Also for bolts only neck size ONLY for cases shot in the SAME GUN.

Also from what I have read another important factor in Accuracy and also plays into the first part is OVERALL SIZE. Seating the bullet to assure a proper length that determines where the bullet sits in relationship to the lands. Most I have read suggest 0-5 thousands off the lands with 2-3 a good average. I havent played with this much. If this is not a good thread for this discussion smack me up side the head and will start a new one for it. It gets a litte more involved that just sizing, but very interesting in theory, why, and how for different guns.

aka

· #10 · Oct 15, 2012

SWO1 said:
Also from what I have read another important factor in Accuracy and also plays into the first part is OVERALL SIZE. Seating the bullet to assure a proper length that determines where the bullet sits in relationship to the lands. Most I have read suggest 0-5 thousands off the lands with 2-3 a good average. I havent played with this much.

Larry Potterfield had done a video on how to measure proper overall length. Of course it was a infomerical for one his products. You maybe able to search it at Youtube or his MidwayUSA site, It makes since to know this and to use it for loading.

axxe55from what i have read in my books they recommend full length resizing for lever and semi-auto actioned rifles and most bolt actions can usually get away with neck sizing only if used in the same rifle as they were shot in to begin with.

I found separating your brass by the weapon bottlenecked or not made a difference when loading. I don't do it with my pistol loads.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 15, 2012

Dummy rounds

SWO1 said:
Although way short on experience as compaired to the other contributors on this post I will echo their comments. Always full size for autos, levers, and pumps. Camming power is a lot less than bolt guns. Also for bolts only neck size ONLY for cases shot in the SAME GUN.

Also from what I have read another important factor in Accuracy and also plays into the first part is OVERALL SIZE. Seating the bullet to assure a proper length that determines where the bullet sits in relationship to the lands. Most I have read suggest 0-5 thousands off the lands with 2-3 a good average. I havent played with this much. If this is not a good thread for this discussion smack me up side the head and will start a new one for it. It gets a litte more involved that just sizing, but very interesting in theory, why, and how for different guns.

I have read and will use this for seating depth for each style bullet I use: When adjusting for seating depth, make a dummy round, which may mean sacrificing a casing for each bullet style, and seat a bullet without crimping. Chamber the round and gently close the action, thereby seating the bullet to a depth that just touches the end of the bullet to the lands. Then crimp the case and adjust the seating die to that length. Best to do this for each bullet style. This eliminates the distance the bullet has to jump before it meets the lands. (freebore?) Makes sense to me.

SWO1

· #12 · Oct 15, 2012

hombre243 said:
I have read and will use this for seating depth for each style bullet I use: When adjusting for seating depth, make a dummy round, which may mean sacrificing a casing for each bullet style, and seat a bullet without crimping. Chamber the round and gently close the action, thereby seating the bullet to a depth that just touches the end of the bullet to the lands. Then crimp the case and adjust the seating die to that length. Best to do this for each bullet style. This eliminates the distance the bullet has to jump before it meets the lands. (freebore?) Makes sense to me.

Along with that method hombre, to make sure the bullet is auctully touching the lands mark the bullet with something, felt pen for example so when extracted you know where and at what length it touches the lands. Different guns will like different lengths, touching lands or 1- ? thousands off for best results. I had in mind after finding a suitable load for my .223 I would do this to futher try and accurtize (is that a word ? ) even more. May take a few of those test dummy rounds to try and find the right set back for my gun. Of course it could happen the bullet becomes engaged in the lands and is left there after extracting the case. then you would have to punch it out from the muzzle with a rod and jag and start over......

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 15, 2012

Oops...

SWO1 said:
Along with that method hombre, to make sure the bullet is auctully touching... Of course it could happen the bullet becomes engaged in the lands and is left there after extracting the case. then you would have to punch it out from the muzzle with a rod and jag and start over......

I thought about that too. I am betting that when the neck is expanded it will allow the bullet to be slid in pretty easily. Touching the lands SHOULDN"T grab the bullet and pull it out but I know it can happen, especially with lead bullets. I will have to just work thet out if it happens, right?

It is all part of the process. I am hoping to use homemade/homestuffed lead bullets for hogs. Lower velocity, i know but good shot placement will be required for a quick kill. That goes for all shots but even moreso when not using supersonic superexpanding factory made externally propelled anti-pork missiles. I like loading my own but if it turns out loading lead pills doesnt work, I will load factory bullets.

I hate tracking game. I want them down...one shot, one kill.

SWO1

· #14 · Oct 15, 2012

Good Luck with that process hombre and let us know how it goes. My .308 seats to the exact length suggested by Sierra without adjusting the die. The .223 on the otherhand seats WAY SHORT of suggested length. I have had to adjust that seating die to stretch them out. Even the factory loads are short of the suggested lengths. So Im thinkin I will have to start experminting with those rounds soon, depending on how the reloads work.

The .308 reloads shoot .5" or better so for now I wont mess with those. Good enough for cleaning the Ear Wax outta those White Tail.....

greyhawk50

· #15 · Oct 15, 2012

Just a word of caution and something to think about.
I have read and believe that the bullet should not touch the lands. There needs to be some free-bore to prevent excessive chamber pressure. It takes pressure to dislodge the bullet from the case, even more so if it is crimped. Then it takes pressure to start the bullet into the lands. If the load is already at or near a max load (I practice with my hunting loads and they are all near max.), the combination of the 2 sources of resistance will cause unsafe chamber pressure. I recommend .001 to .???.
This whole concept is a variable depending on the rifle. I have heard friends that shoot Bench Rest talk about increasing the free-bore to improve accuracy. All depends on the rifle and the only way to know is to try different OALs.
Not trying to be difficult, just my $.02.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #16 · Oct 15, 2012

Point taken

greyhawk50 said:
Just a word of caution and something to think about.
I have read and believe that the bullet should not touch the lands. There needs to be some free-bore to prevent excessive chamber pressure. It takes pressure to dislodge the bullet from the case, even more so if it is crimped. Then it takes pressure to start the bullet into the lands. If the load is already at or near a max load (I practice with my hunting loads and they are all near max.), the combination of the 2 sources of resistance will cause unsafe chamber pressure. I recommend .001 to .???.
This whole concept is a variable depending on the rifle. I have heard friends that shoot Bench Rest talk about increasing the free-bore to improve accuracy. All depends on the rifle and the only way to know is to try different OALs.
Not trying to be difficult, just my $.02.

I know that tha youre right...now that I remember reading that somewhere. 1-2 thou makes a big difference in chamber pressure.

Thanks for the reminder.

SWO1

· #17 · Oct 15, 2012

Good Point Greyhawk ... I was going to mention the Pressure variable in my post about Overall length but it was getting to long already. Like you said it will have different results in different guns. Not having a pressure thingy like the Manfactuers at least ya need a cronograph to see what a 1000th difference in freebore does in the same load. I may be thinkin wrong but by reducing freebore you should be able to raise pressure, thereby raising velocity and accuracy without packin in more propellent. To a safe level of course.

hombre243

Discussion Starter · #18 · Oct 15, 2012

Old info and bad memory...

SWO1 said:
Good Point Greyhawk ... I was going to mention the Pressure variable in my post about Overall length but it was getting to long already. Like you said it will have different results in different guns. Not having a pressure thingy like the Manfactuers at least ya need a cronograph to see what a 1000th difference in freebore does in the same load. I may be thinkin wrong but by reducing freebore you should be able to raise pressure, thereby raising velocity and accuracy without packin in more propellent. To a safe level of course.

Seems to be familiar to me ...I almost remember the article being on benchrest HiPower shooting. The cases were neck sized only then the powder and primer applied. Next, the bullet was just pressed into the casemouth and not very deep. The cartridge was chambered and was not crimped. The pill was stopped by the lands and there was no crimp.. None needed. I wonder if I am correct, firstly, in remembering this correctly; and also I am wondering if this eliminated one of the variables that increases pressure. I cannot source this. But, I have also read that an underdose of powder can cause hi pressure, sooooo, maybe by not crimping, this took care of any over-pressurization. Seems like a long way around the barn to me. I think I will just full length size for the lever gun and when I finally get another bolt gun, I will play with the loads. I need the sierra manual...I believe someone posted that it has loads for levers, pumps and semiautos, and also specifically for bolt guns. Makes sense to me.

HEY...are we having fun yet? Windy, hope you don't feel left out. Eventually you will want to try reloading. As you mentioned, shooting gets expensive. Compare the cost of a box of reloads to a box of factory ammo.

(Reloading adds to the enjoyment of the sport and gets the relpader really familiar with his/her guns and ammo. I like it because it is cheap, and my friends who shoot aren't always asking to borrow my handloaded ammo cause they think i load too hot for their guns.

)

Brass for my 45 LC costs $22.00/100; Bullets, cast storebought cost about $9.20/100 and way less if I cast my own which I do most of the time; Primers cost $3.00/100 and powder, say Unique, costs about $19.00 a pound can. At 8.6 gr powder per shell, I can load 823.5 shells per pound of Unique. That comes to 2.3 cents per shell for powder. Or $2.30 per hundred...but after the case is fired one time it's actual cost is offset by the number of times that case can be reloaded. So I consider it written off the first time it is fired because I hate math. Anyway, my 45 LC loads cost me (second loading, because I buy my brass new and dont buy factory ammo unless I cant get the brass.) about $13.00 / 100. Buy anything in bulk and it cuts down on cost.

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aka

· #19 · Oct 16, 2012

The cartridge was chambered and was not crimped. The pill was stopped by the lands and there was no crimp.. None needed

Was this reference a single shot or box magazine weapon?

aka

· #20 · Oct 16, 2012

BTW that's a pretty accurate account of the cost on .45 colt and about the same for .45 acp also. I haven't broke down .40 or .38 spl in a while but they will be cheaper yet.

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