The Great Caliber Debate !!

9698 Views 54 Replies 18 Participants Last post by tahoe2, Aug 10, 2015

SWO1

Discussion Starter · Oct 17, 2012 (Edited)

Really suprised nobody has brought this up. It ALWAYS does on any hunting forum Ive ever been on. Sooooo here we go........................

I will start by pointing out many States/Countrys have rules that limit "or not" what size projectile may be used to take Deer. And lets for now limit it to WhiteTail (or an equivliant i.e. in Australia) as its the perdominant species the Majority on here hunt. I will give my thoughts first.

In Missouri its ANY CENTERFIRE cartridge.... No FMJ. Thats (as far as I know) .18 Bee - .50 BMG. Shotguns its .410 and up with slugs only. Black Powder is .40 cal for the minimun. Handguns is centerfire again and black Powder handguns .40 cal. And the best is......In my opinion.....

Any of the above. Reason....Its bullet placement that counts.

If you have one that you think is better, other than you just like it, and we all have our favorites, ........why is it better than the rest.

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Bucky

· #21 · Oct 18, 2012 (Edited)

SWO1

Here is a copy of legal stuff from Victorian Australia Game Hunting web site. Get confused
Minimum legal calibre for deer hunting in Victoria DEER SPECIES CENTREFIRE RIFLE MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE

Sambar, Rusa, Red .270” (6.85mm); minimum legal cartridge case length 2” (51 mm); minimum legal projectile weight 130 grains (8.45 grams). .45” (11.45 mm); minimum legal projectile weight 230 grains (14.91 grams).

Hog, Fallow, Chital .243” (6.17 mm); minimum legal cartridge case length 2” (51 mm); minimum legal projectile weight 85 grains (5.51 grams). .45” (11.45 mm); minimum legal projectile weight 133 grains (8.62 grams). Hunting deer with a bow/crossbow

Any bow used to hunt for any species of deer in Victoria must meet the following minimum specifications:

A long bow having a draw-weight of no less than 22.5 kilograms (49.5 lbs).
A recurve bow having a draw-weight of no less than 22.5 kilograms (49.5 lbs).
A compound bow having a peak-weight of no less than 22.5 kilograms (49.5 lbs).
A cross-bow having a draw-weight of no less than 36.6 kilograms (80.5 lbs).
All arrows must be fitted with a broad-head having a minimum of two sharpened cutting blades.
All arrows must have a total minimum weight (shaft and broad-head) of no less than 25 grams (385 grains).

Bow/crossbow hunters must get much closer to their target than hunters who use a firearm, and stalking skills must be combined with effective concealment. For a safe and sure shot, bow hunters should not shoot beyond a distance of 30 metres. As such, bow/crossbow hunters should practice judging distances and determine their own range of accuracy.

For Fallow, and Chital I use my .222... its accurate, and will drop a stag "No Problemo"....... (Aussie saying..... " No Wuckers, Mate !"
........However the last Chital Spiker I nailed, was with the .444 Marlin at 120 mts, as it ran off into the bush.

Rusa.. a scraggy slightly smaller version of a Sambar, I use my .270, with 150gr Woodleigh pills, they drop instantly.

Sambar. although .270 Cal. with a 150gr pill is legal, it will take 5 or 6 shots to put them down. and to me that is just cruel.

.................nothing smaller than a .338, with a 212gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, is a good choice
.................My .444 Marlin, is good under 100 mts, but they can still get up, and run

.................My new .375 H & H Magnum, with a 235gr Speer Hot Core, will just flatten them.

None of my projectiles come out the other side of the animal, so all the energy from the projectile hits, (maximum efficiency.

Any calibre with the wrong Projectile is dangerous, out the other side of the animal, that is why I use HP's or Ballistic Tips, on Foxes and Roo's

Cheers.

Bucky

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SWO1

Discussion Starter · #22 · Oct 18, 2012

Good Info bucky.....

In comparison the Hog and Fallow deer are about the equivilant to our Whitetail. Im sure like here they run bigger/smaller demending on the area. Some whitetail here get huge in some states and in others they are really small. I know on the Atlantic Coast in North Carlolina a 90-100 lb buck is considered big. Up in Iowa in the corn belt they laugh at 250lbs. Around me a 200lb one is big.

The Sambar look to be equal almost to our Western Elk. I can understand the problems with a .270 on them.

I didnt see anything there the size of our Moose. Other than conoviours (Grizzly, Browns, and Polar)probley the most dangerous of our game. You think you are stalking them and then realize, you are the stalked......

Mean, nasty critters.

Thanks again

Bucky

· #23 · Oct 19, 2012

SWO1 said:
Good Info bucky.....

In comparison the Hog and Fallow deer are about the equivilant to our Whitetail. Im sure like here they run bigger/smaller demending on the area. Some whitetail here get huge in some states and in others they are really small. I know on the Atlantic Coast in North Carlolina a 90-100 lb buck is considered big. Up in Iowa in the corn belt they laugh at 250lbs. Around me a 200lb one is big.

The Sambar look to be equal almost to our Western Elk. I can understand the problems with a .270 on them.

I didnt see anything there the size of our Moose. Other than conoviours (Grizzly, Browns, and Polar)probley the most dangerous of our game. You think you are stalking them and then realize, you are the stalked...... Mean, nasty critters.

Thanks again

A sambar Stag is the size of a Friesian Cow, although much heavier built in the legs, and can run like a Greyhound.

Buffalo, in the Northern Territory, is our biggest game animal, and I am working on that one. But the Mate's .338 that is in my gunsafe,, is fine on them .
My part, for the loan of the 338, was to load up 200 rounds of 150gr pills, for his 270 in a Remington 700 (a twin to my 270)
2 of those rounds dropped a Buffalo in the Territory, last year. Apparently one behind the ear dropped it, and another to finish it off

Again a lot depends on placement, not caliber. I believe it is a combination of the both.

Cheers
Bucky

Bucky

· #24 · Oct 19, 2012

1894 said:
The .270 is the best deer killer ever invented .

45-70 , may as well just throw a brick at the deer.

30-06 ??? Really they still make those antiques ?

Can't kill deer with millimeters ,deer rifles are measured in inches.

The .22 rimfire has probably killed more deer in the USA than all other centerfires combined.

1894
I grew up with British Imperial Measurement, (Almost the same as US measurement)

Metric measurements can kill too !
and converted to 'milimeters" , at age 15.
I can use both, and that's my problem, I never actually dropped one or the other.

I use US measurements for everything rifle/gun
It's easier, but trust me,,,,... "mm" is more precise. But it confuses the hell out of young fellars, that drop in with their rifles

Windy

· #25 · Oct 20, 2012

greyhawk50 said:
And it's OK that you have never shot an animal. If you ever do, it should be because you want to, not because someone else thinks that you should.

I wouldn't mind trying my hand at hunting. I would love to put a hog in my freezer. If you knew me several years ago you would know what a profound statement that is for me.

I have this fear that I would wound the animal and not kill it and not be able to find it. I would never want to inflict a slow, agonizing pain on anything.

1894 said:
The .22 rimfire has probably killed more deer in the USA than all other centerfires combined.

Wow! I would think .22 is too small to take a deer humanely........unless you are a very, very good shot.

But again, I am really new to guns and even though I am learning every day I don't really know a lot about hunting.

greyhawk50

· #26 · Oct 21, 2012

Windy said:
Wow! I would think .22 is too small to take a deer humanely........unless you are a very, very good shot.

But again, I am really new to guns and even though I am learning every day I don't really know a lot about hunting.

I believe that he is referring to the illegal taking of deer. Use of a 22 rim-fire for taking deer is totally illegal in every state that I know of and I believe it is unethical.
This is second hand and third hand information that I believe to be true.
1. A farmer suffering from crop damage from deer and is standing on the back porch of his house, takes his trusty 22 rifle, at pistol range, and drops a young doe with one well placed heart shot.
2. A young, over zealous night hunter, takes a good flashlight and a 22 mag. and is successful in putting meat in the freezer with a well placed head shot.
3. In parts of the state where there are economically challenged residents who tend to live by the laws of their forefathers, harvest deer any time of the year. Just to feed their family. It's their way of life. Stealth works to their advantage and the 22 meets that requirement.

Whether that number exceeds legal harvest numbers is a subject for debate.

However, there are states that allow 22 cal. center-fire rifles. I have read many threads on forums where this practice is defended and considered by some to be very ethical with proper shot placement, preferable a neck shot.

And I hope you get to go Hog Hunting someday.

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1894

· #27 · Oct 21, 2012

3

Windy , you are correct regarding a .22 rf for deer .

Grey hawk gave a pretty good explanation.

It seems many of us have seen this topic ( the best caliber or even the best bullets in a caliber, for deer ) discussed on other forums at length.
It usually involves several folks with strong , varying opinions, that are dead sure they are correct and everyone else s opinions are wrong .
Usually turns out to be more like a pro wrastling cage match (for lack of a more fitting , yet apropriate family friendly term ) than any kind of intelligent discussion .
No different than my brand of truck is 5 X better than yours , or , your tractor sucks because it is the wrong color ,or my school is better than yours or ....... well , you get the idea.
I just posted a few off the top of my head that I had seen in the past several times.
I think the first post was just a light hearted attempt to

I just played along , tis the season

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greyhawk50

· #28 · Oct 21, 2012 (Edited)

AND, from a plow-boy's point of view;
If'n you live in the eastern part of this great land - what cain't you kill with your trusty ole pump shotgun.
If you got yourself 2 barrels for that shotgun - one with choke tubes and one with rifle sights - you can kill just about anything within range.
Gather up a locker full of bird shot, buck shot and slugs - you're good to go.

But I'll keep my trusty 30-30 just in case.

SWO1

Discussion Starter · #29 · Oct 21, 2012

Nothin wrong with shotguns. Lots of guides in Alaska carry them with slugs for Grizzley, Browns, ect. With the 3.5" 12ga, Improved sabbot slugs, and high capacity mags. I've seen results with proper barrel and rounds they are good out to 150 yrds +

jeffw122

· #30 · Oct 22, 2012

I started my hunting "career" with shotguns. Not necessarily by choice, but effective none the less with proper ammunition. I enjoyed the versitilty of the 870 package. Deer in the morning, upland game in the afternoon . My primary deer rifle is chambered in 300 WSM. I do not like to blood trail, and can't stand the thought of not being able to find an animal I know is mortaly wounded. Thus the choice of caliber. My secondary deer rifle if a freedom arms model 83 in 454 Casull. As I mentioned, I do not like to blood trail. Not that my skills are lacking, before all of you magnum haters jump on me. I have over 30 years hunting experience.

SWO1

Discussion Starter · #31 · Oct 22, 2012

If the mags satisfy youre requirements then thats what you should use jeffw122. dont think anyone here will fault ya for it.

30-30, .308, 30-06, 300.....All are the same caliber. We all are driven a Volkswagen with these. You just load the trunk of the 300 with a ton of rocks and run into things harder........

Hyphenated

· #32 · Oct 23, 2012

I agree shot placement is king, but caliber selection insures the kill is humane. I also agree with someone's post about states should have some standards/restrictions. Unfortunately there are some yahoo's in the woods who need guidance. I think the minimum for rifles should be 243/6mm with 100gr bullets. Handguns should be 6" barrel 357mag with 158gr bullets.

I try to always use a lever action when possible,,,32spl. 375win or 444marlin. However, when I know the shots will be long my fall back position is a 270win. in a Howa bolt action.

tahoe2

· #33 · Dec 1, 2012

shot placement !!

I agree with Hyphenated and anybody else that said it !! Shot Placement !!

I have talked to two hunters this season that had one get away, they both said their shots were good on the target.
One shoots a .257 Weatherby and the other a .300 Win Mag, but hunting is just that ! Hunting. I got nothing against "magnums", shoot em if you can take the recoil, they anchor animals in their tracks when used properly, but then so will standard rounds.
Lots of variables to contend with, judging distance, wind, angle of penetration, uphill, downhill, etc...
I have been told if you hunt long enough one will get away, they are animals, after all, fighting for survival.
There are so many great calibers/cartridges out there that will work, it's up to the "shooter" to make it happen.

28Shooter

· #34 · Jan 6, 2013

My senior relatives and I all carried 30/30s (mostly Winnie '94s - forgive me!) and my Dad carried a scoped 700 BDL in 30/06. My grandfather was still using the '94 he bought new back in 1912 into the '70s - he was a very frugal Dutchman and that rifle never failed him. His brother-in-law had a big dairy operation and used a 32-20 Winchester attached to his Farmall in a saddle scabbard. I really wish that I could have hunted with those guys in their prime - good men both!

Gumpy

· #35 · Jan 9, 2013

I only could afford 1 rifle to deer hunt with and the .270 choice I made has never failed me. But then I don't shoot unles I can get a heart shot.

SWO1

Discussion Starter · #36 · Jan 9, 2013

A person who uses a firearm/caliber that they are proficient and confident with has "The Best One"

Gumpy

· #37 · Jan 9, 2013

SWO1 said:
A person who uses a firearm/caliber that they are proficient and confident with has "The Best One"

Amen!!!!!! Kinda' like Ford, Chevy, or Dodge pickups lol.

oldbrass

· #38 · Jan 10, 2013

I`ve been archery hunting the past few years, muzzle loading next year..Just trying different methods is sorta fun...The 10 years before that it was strictly 30-30 In alabama and Washington state. All game that presented itself was in the freezer. A great deer caliber within its intended range

Gumpy

· #39 · Jan 10, 2013 (Edited)

The 30-30 is great in Alabama because of the thick brush. I just happened to have some big bean fields to hunt over. The longest shot I took was a little over 400 yds.

greyhawk50

· #40 · Jan 10, 2013

SWO1 said:
A person who uses a firearm/caliber that they are proficient and confident with has "The Best One"

Beware of a person that has/uses only one gun. Chances are, they know how to use it.
I'm down to one center-fire rifle. Marlin 30-30 all the way. All that i need - all that I want.
Shotguns are a different story.

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